| Sean Cubitt on Tue, 6 Nov 2018 12:29:32 +0100 (CET) |
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| Re: <nettime> a propos of nothing |
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As others have said, the biggest takeaway form all this AB trolling came from Felix
"Our
task, in my view, is to develop new languages, and new
Not just because it resonates with projects I'm involved with in Europe and elsewhere but because it names both the challenges and the route out - an aesthetic politics of multiplicity, experience and translation. It's not that there's no such thing as class or class struggle or ethnicity, or god help us gender. It is that these are concepts, not actualities, not experiences. The new languages Felix calls for don't come from juggling concepts but from translating experiences, multiple and unique experiences, where the forces we describe with these concepts are actually in play, actually over-determining (as we used to say), in conflict with each other and with lived reality
it is active, creative, collective work, demanding and in the best sense incompletable. This aesthetic commons is both the means and the goal the solidarity of many nettimers, including lurkers like me, is a part of it, certainly not worth throwing away over a neo-con DJ.
Sean Cubitt Department of Media, Communications and Cultural Studies Goldsmiths, University of London New Cross, London SE14 6NW From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of [email protected] <[email protected]>
Sent: 06 November 2018 10:09 To: [email protected] Subject: nettime-l Digest, Vol 134, Issue 21 Send nettime-l mailing list submissions to
[email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of nettime-l digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: apropos of nothing (Nina Tempor?r) 2. Taking sides (Ryan Griffis) 3. Re: apropos of nothing (tbyfield) 4. Re: Taking sides (tbyfield) 5. Re: apropos "relax dear" (Julia R?der) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 02:55:41 +0100 From: Nina Tempor?r <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: <nettime> apropos of nothing Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Yes, yet another sad moment the ?spot the mistake? game seems a level too high here... If one wants to see a silver lining in this whole incident, it?s that it helped make the deep contempt for certain minorities surface that?ve been lingering in nettime?s viscera. Therefore I also do think It?s an important question Angela posed. Brian, you criticised AB for flaws in his ?political theory?, yes, and thanks for that - But is cocking one?s head and patiently explaining everything to a verbally very grown-up abuser, At the cost of women and POC, really the right way to change sth? I don?t think so. With his ?anti-filter-bubble? request, AB has very skilfully lulled everyone Into believing they are anti-democratic when not accepting his kind of speech. But what he has actually done by this, is extending his very own wellness-zone. > Am 04.11.2018 um 01:12 schrieb Angela Mitropoulos <[email protected]>: > > It is a simple and straightforward question that I would like answered. It makes no inferences about whether recruitment is effective, or even deliberate rather than aesthetic. But I'm grateful for the evidence you've furnished, dear, about the way in which women are told to calm down and shut up, no matter the tone they take, so that those who think women and black people are less than human and not entitled to take up space can keep ranting on at length about how everyone other than white guys are less than human. I mean, I'm grateful that you've illustrated the reason why I asked this question in the first place. That said, I have no interest in debating this further. > > I simply repeat my question, and would like it answered. Preferably in the negative. But if in the affirmative, then I would like to suggest that Nettime be shuttered because any benefit it had for creating a better world has long past. The world doesn't need a longform version of Gab, or Gab for that matter. > > Angela > > On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 10:29, Willem van Weelden <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > dear angela, > relax dear. > it is ok. > noone is recruiting anyone here. > chill. > best, > w > > > > On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > > > What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a platform from which to recruit? > > > > Angela > > > > > > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l <http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l> > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org <http://www.nettime.org/> contact: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20181106/4799d231/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 20:50:22 -0600 From: Ryan Griffis <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: <nettime> Taking sides Message-ID: <CAHA881zE0vQY3c-KywZNNVcE8NBP6iNi0N-GyXgcREE3nyzYhw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I take neither side at Charlottesville Need anyone say more? As we in the US have been saying for years about the Republican party's turn to explicit and open authoritarianism, believe people when they tell you who they are. In my experience, real pragmatism follows action and results. The people moving the Left forward in the US are overwhelmingly POC women and queer organizers. Many of them are trained and educated in political Marxism, as well as cultural and political organizing through institutions like Highlander, the Boggs Center, The Allied Media Conference, etc. They have developed very sophisticated responses to inter-movement/inter-community forms of conflict resolution that avoid the use of state intervention. They have done amazing cross-movement organizing that includes labor, indigenous nations, people who have been incarcerated, etc. They seem perfectly able to find strength in the recognition of intersectional forms of oppression and then take them on without saying, "No, but this philosophy is the one we should stick to!" People trying to convince me that these folks' life experiences aren't meaningful to the political struggle I see all around me, while labeling them with the name of a dead European philosopher, just sound irrelevant at best. I'm not really looking to continue this "debate," but wanted to add my voice to those saying what seems pretty obvious. Best, Ryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20181105/23b805ed/attachment-0001.html> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 03:50:42 +0100 From: tbyfield <[email protected]> To: "Angela Mitropoulos" <[email protected]> Cc: Nettime <[email protected]> Subject: Re: <nettime> apropos of nothing Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Angela, all ? Felix Stalder and I are the two people who've consistently moderated the list for the last twenty years. We don't speak for each other, but for my part the simple and straightforward answer to your question is no: nettime will not give fascists a platform from which to recruit. If I see something that clearly crosses any of those lines ? there are a few bundled up in there ? I'll stop it first and then we can all debate whether that was the right thing to do and how to proceed. In general, Felix and I have avoided laying down any clearly defined policies at all. While the list isn't what it used to be, the fact that it's lasted this long suggests that's been a prudent approach. Times are changing, but I haven't seen anything on the list that seemed to justify changing that. If you or anyone else see something that seems to cross a clear line, please say so ? on the list or privately, whichever you prefer. I assume your question was promoted in part by Bard. Personally, I think he's a troll. As I said a few days ago, whenever I see his mail my first reaction is "When's the new book coming out?" ? and not because I have the slightest interests in his wanking. Felix took a more oblique approach in the same thread ("Complexity and nostalgia," 3 Nov). That's generally how we've tried to moderate: openly on the list rather than behind the scenes, and by nudging discussions rather than cutting people off. We did briefly discuss intervening more directly but decided not to ? yet. But as to your more general question, I'd rather just flip the bit and moderate Bard on the grounds that he behaves like an asshole than concoct a formal definition of assholism and then apply that rule to him retroactively. Nettime has lots of failings, but Bard-like behavior isn't one of them. One useful parallel in this context is Morlock Elloi, who stopped contributing when someone threw a tantrum about his contributions to the list. I think nettime is a much poorer place for his absence, but whatever you or anyone else may think of his contributions, note well: when someone objected, he stopped. Bard, by contrast, fuels negativity and feeds off it ? and the list is a much poorer place for his presence. Cheers, Ted On 4 Nov 2018, at 1:12, Angela Mitropoulos wrote: > It is a simple and straightforward question that I would like > answered. It > makes no inferences about whether recruitment is effective, or even > deliberate rather than aesthetic. But I'm grateful for the evidence > you've > furnished, dear, about the way in which women are told to calm down > and > shut up, no matter the tone they take, so that those who think women > and > black people are less than human and not entitled to take up space can > keep > ranting on at length about how everyone other than white guys are less > than > human. I mean, I'm grateful that you've illustrated the reason why I > asked > this question in the first place. That said, I have no interest in > debating > this further. > > I simply repeat my question, and would like it answered. Preferably in > the > negative. But if in the affirmative, then I would like to suggest that > Nettime be shuttered because any benefit it had for creating a better > world > has long past. The world doesn't need a longform version of Gab, or > Gab for > that matter. > > Angela > > On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 10:29, Willem van Weelden > <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> dear angela, >> relax dear. >> it is ok. >> noone is recruiting anyone here. >> chill. >> best, >> w >> >> >>> On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos < >> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a >> platform from which to recruit? >>> >>> Angela ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 04:06:51 +0100 From: tbyfield <[email protected]> To: "Ryan Griffis" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: <nettime> Taking sides Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 6 Nov 2018, at 3:50, Ryan Griffis wrote: >> I take neither side at Charlottesville > > Need anyone say more? Nope. 'Charlottesville' was a neo-nazi riot in which a person was murdered. That's a good reason to take a side ? against neo-nazis. To not take a side is, in effect, to condone that murder. I think it's reasonable to say that condoning murders, however indirectly, crosses a clear line on this list. For that reason, I just flipped the mod switch on Bard: his messages will be held for review. He's given us a lot to think about lately, so reviewing new ones won't be a high priority. This decision is mine alone ? I haven't talked with Felix about it. Comments and criticisms are warmly welcome. Cheers, Ted ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 01:57:27 +0100 From: Julia R?der <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: <nettime> apropos "relax dear" Message-ID: <CAFB7DC=+JViZrQxtDea4i9SqMAB2Ek4gbRCybOs4XU+[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" about that > dear angela, > relax dear. > it is ok. > noone is recruiting anyone here. > chill. > best, > w so, is that it? silence about this from the whole list except from angela? do you all not say anything because you think this is trolling or this is normal?? On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 23:29, <[email protected]> wrote: > Send nettime-l mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of nettime-l digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: apropos of nothing (Angela Mitropoulos) > 2. Re: apropos of nothing (Florian Cramer) > 3. Re: Complexity and nostalgia (bronac ferran) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 11:12:54 +1100 > From: Angela Mitropoulos <[email protected]> > To: Nettime <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: <nettime> apropos of nothing > Message-ID: > <CANOG54eNOM7MpzRoZkGj4zo46= > nC4P+[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > It is a simple and straightforward question that I would like answered. It > makes no inferences about whether recruitment is effective, or even > deliberate rather than aesthetic. But I'm grateful for the evidence you've > furnished, dear, about the way in which women are told to calm down and > shut up, no matter the tone they take, so that those who think women and > black people are less than human and not entitled to take up space can keep > ranting on at length about how everyone other than white guys are less than > human. I mean, I'm grateful that you've illustrated the reason why I asked > this question in the first place. That said, I have no interest in debating > this further. > > I simply repeat my question, and would like it answered. Preferably in the > negative. But if in the affirmative, then I would like to suggest that > Nettime be shuttered because any benefit it had for creating a better world > has long past. The world doesn't need a longform version of Gab, or Gab for > that matter. > > Angela > > On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 10:29, Willem van Weelden <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > dear angela, > > relax dear. > > it is ok. > > noone is recruiting anyone here. > > chill. > > best, > > w > > > > > > > On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a > > platform from which to recruit? > > > > > > Angela > > > > > > > > > > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] > > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20181104/f2cd6c22/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 13:15:16 +0100 > From: Florian Cramer <[email protected]> > Cc: Nettime <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: <nettime> apropos of nothing > Message-ID: > <CADCyihQJfoRHqWhC_1jnOi5nh5fcp9ihNw= > [email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Alexander Bard is a typical example of a "Querfront" activist, and a member > of this right-wing party: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Coalition > > -F > > -- > blog: *https://pod.thing.org/people/13a6057015b90136f896525400cd8561 > <https://pod.thing.org/people/13a6057015b90136f896525400cd8561>* > bio: http://floriancramer.nl > > > On Sun, Nov 4, 2018 at 12:30 AM Willem van Weelden <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > dear angela, > > relax dear. > > it is ok. > > noone is recruiting anyone here. > > chill. > > best, > > w > > > > > > > On 03 Nov 2018, at 23:04, Angela Mitropoulos < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > What is Nettime's policy on whether or not it should give fascists a > > platform from which to recruit? > > > > > > Angela > > > > > > > > > > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] > > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20181104/dbf7a410/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2018 13:49:52 +0000 > From: bronac ferran <[email protected]> > To: a moderated mailing list for net criticism > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: <nettime> Complexity and nostalgia > Message-ID: > < > CAOXXUWDNbNDgLEdwSCAKjfpbjJx3ZRwG-G2-y+[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Thank you very much for doing this Nina. Frankly I was just 'bard stiff' > after reading such flat, leaden prose by someone attempting and failing to > antagonise whilst posing libidinously, apropos of celebrity > > https://twitter.com/Bardissimo/status/973224337976315907 > > Have filtered under BS. > > Brona? > > > On Sun, 4 Nov 2018 at 01:12, Nina Tempor?r <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Wow, nettime?s very own James Damore moment - > > And hardly anyone calls him out. > > > > I cannot believe how easily so many people here allowed A.B. to > > intellectually-click-bait > > them into a discussion just because he whispered the magic words ?Marx? > > and ?class?, > > And willingly delivered him material to refine his language for his > > pseudo-philosophical > > White male ?ngst-driven project, > > Even after he had already lashed out in a dangerously generalized way > > against academia, > > After he had already generally denounced identity politics as self-pity > > and whining, after he > > Had claimed gender & race as having no social realities, after he had > > judged the welfare > > State as an infantilization of society and, on top of all, had totally > > ridiculously indulged himself > > In a teenage-like invention rage of cock-culture-worshipping neologisms > > that he obviously enjoys > > To decorate his little short-20th-Century binary phantasy land with. > > > > While a few of the answers with serious reactions to the classism > question > > were really a > > Pleasure to read and very much worth considering under different > premises, > > I don?t understand > > why almost nobody here (except for Alice, Ian, and Florian - thanks for > > your interventions) did see > > The contradiction that the very same people he claims to be wanting to > > work with in that new class > > War he dreams of, get insulted so badly and in a hierarchy-reproducing > > manner, that a future > > Cooperation is being boycotted before it has even started. > > > > Is that really only a sad lack of strategic thinking? Or not rather > > revealing how inclusive his > > New class war phantasy actually is, and whose perspective he expects to > be > > adopted as > > Conceptual lead? > > > > There is a big difference between disagreement and lashing out in a way > > that reveals absolute > > Entitlement, and even worse: the assumption to be ?safe? when stating > such > > stuff in a place > > Like nettime mailing list. > > > > It?s so tiring to be forced to point out, once more, that entitlement is > > key in this problematic: > > > > While Alexander and his followers have very well understood that > investing > > into digital literacy > > Is an absolute necessity if they want to survive in these times, any > > knowledge update in relation to > > Gender & anti-racism debates is shrugged of as community-specific > > expertise (and commented > > With the reproach of having an only self-healing effect) instead of > > understood as the fundamental, > > Constitutive (not so new) change of perspective, without which > > no thorough analysis of class > > Struggle can withstand. > > > > It was really interesting to read Dan?s report/ analysis of the beginning > > of ?identity politics? in the US > > (In Europe, I assume, this is a slightly different story) and > > his acknowledgement/ claim that it is his > > Generation's own fault not to have passed on the historic context to the > > next generation. > > I would really like to engage in this discussion by asking if it is > really > > about the lack of history in a > > Negative sense, or, if the (assumed) lack of history/ continuity might > not > > be _expression_ of a generally > > Positive phenomenon: the attitude of a generation being sick of any kind > > of further waiting and gradual > > Development, legitimately bold enough to demand full acceptance here and > > now - even if this leads to > > A roundhouse-kick-radicality that sometimes feels moralizing and partly > > unfair even to antecedent > > activists. (And no, I am not part of that generation and often enough > > annoyed myself, but try to > > Understand.) > > > > I?m not keen of discussing it in a context, though, where Alexander Bard > > can blatantly display his near-hatred > > Anger on certain minority activism without being sanctioned, just days > > after a shooting in a synagogue and > > Lethal threats to critics of Trump, with daily Police brutality towards > > POC, regular attacks on homes for asylum > > Seekers in Germany, harassment of anti-Trump academics in the US > > and similar harassments of academics > > Criticising right-wing politics now - even structurally organised - by > the > > AfD in Germany as well, and ongoing > > And normalised discrimination of and assaults on women. > > Incitement to violence is a spark easily ignited these days. > > > > Last but not least, I have the impression A.B. never really had to speak > > up for himself against a mainstream > > Opinion, otherwise he would know how much courage it takes and that it is > > no way just 'fighting for one?s > > Own good? but helps numerous others affected by that norm, and that > > keeping quiet and adapting, even at > > The high price of ongoing unfair treatment, is often the easier way. > > > > It seems to be necessary to point out that repeating just a mainstream > > opinion, once it is tumbling and > > Forced to open up to multi-perspective views, does n o t count as such. > > > > Best, N > > Ps: Alice and Ian, your mails arrived while I wrote this, thanks again > > > > > > Am 03.11.2018 um 18:30 schrieb Brian Holmes < > [email protected] > > >: > > > > On Sat, Nov 3, 2018 at 7:11 AM Felix Stalder <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > On Sat, Nov 3, 2018, 6:07 AM Alexander Bard <[email protected] wrote: > > > > > >> > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] > > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > > > -- > Brona? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://mx.kein.org/pipermail/nettime-l/attachments/20181104/53c7659f/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > > End of nettime-l Digest, Vol 134, Issue 17 > ****************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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