<nettime> planet of the apes destroyed, typescript at 11 digest [korula, schultz]

["nettime's_monkey_in_the_middle" <nettime@bbs.thing.net>]

tarikh korula <ttk201@nyu.edu>
     Re: <nettime> Planet destroyed; film at 11
Pit Schultz <pit@klubradio.de>
     Fwd: Re[2]: <nettime> Planet destroyed; film at 11

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Subject: Re: <nettime> Planet destroyed; film at 11
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:12:05 -0500
From: tarikh korula <ttk201@nyu.edu>

>Are you saying we also "created" poodles from wolves?

"Although the subject continues to be controversial, most authorities now 
agree that all dogs, from chihuahuas to dobermans are descended from 
wolves which were tamed in the Near East ten or twelve thousand years 
ago". Wolves, C. Savage, Sierra Club Book, ISBN 0-87156-689-3 ...

"Herre and his colleagues at the institute had come to the firm 
conclusion on the basis of a large number of skull measurements and 
examinations of the size and structure of the brain, blood factors, and 
numbers of chromosomes that all dogs, whether Pekingese, bulldogs or 
Alsatians, were descended solely from the wolf and not, as has often been 
assumed, from the wolf and the jackal. "The domesticated wolf is the 
dog". The Wolf, a Species in Danger, Dr. Erik Zimen, Delacorte Press, NY, 
ISBN 0-440-09619-7 

http://www.grapevine.net/~wolf2dog/genetic1.htm

>Your knowledge of history is similarly skewed when you write:

eat me

---------
Tarikh Korula
tk@angel.net

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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 05:57:15 +0200
From: Pit Schultz <pit@klubradio.de>
Subject: Fwd: Re[2]: <nettime> Planet destroyed; film at 11

This is a forwarded message
From: Pit Schultz <pit@klubradio.de>
To: McKenzie Wark <mw35@nyu.edu>
Date: Saturday, June 16, 2001, 1:55:01 AM
Subject: <nettime> Planet destroyed; film at 11

the problem with nature is that it tends to become always
second nature as soon a men appears in it, obverves it,
measures, categorizes it. the german romantics had quite
an obsession about "creating a nature which is super
natural" just to discover the (troubled) self of the
artist in the middle of it, just in the moment when
industrialisation takes over. so what humboldt and darwin
discover in the djungle is a *machinic order*, a nature
which is already organized like the branches of a gigantic
library or a perfect liberal market.

to me animals much more are living grammar of our cultural
subconscious. the lion, the tiger, the dragon, the fish.
there is something older in the idolatry of animals,
in the domestication, the symbiosis of man, dog, chicken,
cow. the semiotis of animals, the reading, the breeding
is a cultural technology as well as the discovery
of the fire. if some people love books, i love animals.

nettime, for example is maybe best described, in
a certain heroic phase as the virtual version of the
gibraltar rock. understanding the hirarchy of monkeys
says a lot about how human society functions.


From: McKenzie Wark <mw35@nyu.edu>
To: Pit Schultz <pit@klubradio.de>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:36:23 -0500


Pit says:

"to me animals much more are living grammar of our cultural
subconscious. the lion, the tiger, the dragon, the fish.
there is something older in the idolatry of animals,
in the domestication, the symbiosis of man, dog, chicken,
cow. the semiotis of animals, the reading, the breeding
is a cultural technology as well as the discovery
of the fire. if some people love books, i love animals."

This is very good, very useful, for getting into the *problem*
of the human/inhuman boundary, and the way GM really
troubles our sense of the boundary. While my sympathies
are with the anti-GM people on political grounds, I don't
buy the arguments that posit an uncomplicated nature-as-
other. This is I think what Scot was drawing attention to in
the first place, before people started shrieking at him
lile gibraltar monkeys. Nature is already the site of a problem,
and the problem is not solved by opposing just one of the
problematic relations humans enter into with this other
that is only created in the first place through our relation to
it. There was no 'nature', as a concept, until there was
something that sought to break with it.

McKenzie Wark

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